The (dopey) desire to believe?
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But no one is telling me how they get here, or why.
I keep pressing the distance and time factors and the idea that a species from elsewhere in the cosmos (or even closer by in our galaxy) would develop (evolve) in ways so different from Earthlings that ascribing human thinking and motivations to them is a neurotic projection unworthy of serious consideration.
Tell me how ETs get here and why? I mean don’t give me the ideas that ETs find humans and Earth so wonderful that they keep coming back after discovering this lonely planet in some way or another.
Commenting that electro-magnetic anomalies allegedly causing malfunction or illness after an odd something occurs nearby derive from alien machinery or interaction is presented without fact or scientific proof; the idea is a wish or non-thinking interjection placed upon a strange event.
There are a number of other saner possibilities for UFO visitation: time-travel, inter-dimensional intrusions or accidents, or something else easier to swallow than (very) long-distance travelers with the same mind-sets of humans.
The ET scenario is an easy UFO solution to swallow, to believe in, but only if it's examined without scrutiny of the scientific problems with it.
Give me something to make your ET case, besides the sci-fi encrusted version.
You ET endorsers are smart, yes? (Or am I surrounded by dunder- headed UFO fans who haven’t really thought through the problems with alien visitation?)
RR
posted by RRRGroup at
Monday, January 31, 2022
27 Comments:
"Give me something to make your ET case, besides the sci-fi encrusted version."
And what would you accept as "something"? If I produced a dead alien (or an autopsy for one) you would still argue that it could all be a hoax and/or there is no way he/she/it could have gotten here from a distant star...so it must be all be a hoax! Or if I put a live alien on television you would argue that it could all be a hoax since they could not possibly look or think (or talk) like humans. (Reminds me of Machael Shermer's position that aliens don't exist because they just can't.) So what would you really accept as something?
How about what the AF intelligence itself accepted way back in 1947 (Twining memo) that some UFOs were real and acted (responded) "evasively" when approached by our aircraft? Who or what on earth had disc shaped objects with no visible control artifacts or forms of propulsion that could evade our aircraft when approached?. And be tracked on radar? And fly silently? Now just answer me that and we would be done.
Donald Keyone was convinced that (some) UFOs were both real and inter-planetary because all of his Navy and AR pilot buddies had told him that they could not even "close" on the flying saucers; they were "evasive". And when he went on that infamous Arstrong Circle Theater show he was going to tell the American public that the "motion" of the saucers, their evasiveness, was evidence that they were likely "unknown machines under intelligent control." And clearly that "intelligence" was not ours or anyone else's back then...or now. (Recall, by the way, that when he tried to tell the T.V. audience that UFOs were "intelligent machines" his live mike was cut by prior agreement between CBS and the AF; we all saw his lips moving but never heard his case that UFOs were intelligent machines of unknown origin.)
Inter-dimentional? Time travelers? Possible, but I can't wrap my head around those notions. But given what we are doing on Mars at the moment and given that an alien civilization could be thousands of years ahead, visitors from off the planet still sounds like a reasonable hypothesis to me.
By
Dominick, at Monday, January 31, 2022
Dom, I love your persistence.
I can accept that some intergalactic species discovered Earth during a reconnoiter of some kind...like a probe and might make a personal attempt to find out more but that is so human-like.
The evasive quality of UFOs was ascribed by Gerald Heard as insect-like, a seeming loony suggestion but leading to a possibility that the behaviour of saucers need not be a reaction by pilots as we understand pilotry.
Did you grab the PDF I offered.
It has some meaty thought.
And know how much I appreciate your thinking on the matter.
I wish we could drag others into the discussion.
RR (via my phone)
By
RRRGroup, at Monday, January 31, 2022
Hahahaha Dom, knew that would strike a cord with yare:) Can't help but agree with him Rich,and we understand your view as well, but look; UFO are here, & REAL aren't they?
So if they are here, and real, and they're not ours (Earths) who the hells are they?
If they are not from earth, then there is only one other place...OUT THERE! RIGHT?
Now, we can understand your reasoning with the "Distance & Time" in the cosmos,on our understanding of science, but, (after) the speed of light, all THAT may change, we don't know this, because we've never been at the speed of light,to find out, and know.
But whatever these craft are...they're here...HOW?...Time travel? Could explain it, but who knows? We don't. But they are here just the same, are they not!?...HOW?
When your thinking Rich, "Distance & Time" in the cosmos is not possible to achieve, then why are they here, and HOW? It could mean that they come from somewhere much closer.....?
Hahaha, on the other hand LOL, You may be right:) Who the hell knows:).........?
By
Daniel, at Monday, January 31, 2022
Daniel, you and Dom, and a few others are too quick to grab the ET explanation for UFOs.
The ET fitting has been pushed upon us for such a long time, it's hard to think through it.
There may be an exotic explanation, unique and totally new....I think Ron gets that.
Even if time and distance are mastered by an advanced species, the remoteness and lack of singular specialty eludes Earth as a place so much greater than others in the cosmos that UFOs keep coming here.....even a few of them.
It's the projection of human thinking and behavior on alien beings that is problematical.
And the idea that Earth and we humans are such a very special creation, bringing UFOs here, galls me: it's a decoration of ego that makes us think that UFOs with alien purpose just have to keep skimming and grabbing us, as if there are no other species in the whole Universe worthy of such attention.
The ET assessment for UFOs is simplistic, unworthy of the attention.
That's what irks me.
RR
By
RRRGroup, at Monday, January 31, 2022
Rich;
If the ET assessment for UFOs is simplistic, and unworthy of the attention,then who or what,created the craft that's seen by thousands, world wide, over the years, tell us that!.......?
By
Daniel, at Monday, January 31, 2022
If I had the answer Dan, I'd be king of the castle or "master of my domain" -- wait, that's something else.
RR
By
RRRGroup, at Monday, January 31, 2022
Keep smiling Rich,your doing all right:).........
By
Daniel, at Monday, January 31, 2022
Actually Daniel asks the absolutely correct question here. Those who believe that the ETH is silly and unsuportable must provide some sort of an answer to that question. Who built the disc-shaped objects (and occasional triangles) that fly soundlessly with no obvious control surfaces or power source? Who? And make sure that your answer is less "silly" than the ETH.
By
Dominick, at Tuesday, February 01, 2022
Nope, my dear pal Dominick..
You fellows have to show us the reality of an ET presence.
A disc-shaped or triangular shaped thing with no apparent power source could be anything, outside our current knowledge.
Not necessarily an ET craft. No matter how much you boys would wish it to be so.
Foolish, illogical, childish thinking.
But I luv you guys regardless. You are two innocent babes in the intellectual woods.
RR
By
RRRGroup, at Tuesday, February 01, 2022
Oh. Got it. Your answer to Dan's excellent question is "...it could be anything outside our current knowledge." And "anything" would NOT include the ETH? Why the hell not?
By
Dominick, at Tuesday, February 01, 2022
It could be ET Dom, but a remote (for me) speculation.
(You know my reasons for eschewing the ET designation.)
RR
By
RRRGroup, at Tuesday, February 01, 2022
Look, Rich, it's a remote speculation for all of us. Absent a live alien who tells all, it just has to be remote speculation...
By
Dominick, at Tuesday, February 01, 2022
But you and Dan, plus a few others want UFOs to be ET craft.
I don't see UFOs as ET oriented but I have to admit that I'm not seeing any better explanation, sadly.
But that doesn't make me grasp the ETH.
It's too simple and unscientific like that of the anti-vaccine people.
Yet it remains a possibility, just not a probability.
You guys haven't proven your case.
You just have a wish and some sci-fi flakery.
RR
By
RRRGroup, at Tuesday, February 01, 2022
-> You fellows have to show us the reality of an ET presence.<-
Rich, the reality of an ET presence here on Earth, "IS" because of the craft, that is seen world wide here on Earth. If WE,(Earth) didn't build these things, who or what did?..
ET.[Extraterrestrial] Means outside Earth: existing or coming from somewhere outside Earth and its atmosphere..
Rich, what else could it be,if not ET? It is not that we & few others want UFOs to be ET craft, not at all, it is because, if Earth did not manufacture these things,then something else did; Something off Earth!? This makes it none-other than [Extraterrestrial] ET. For what it means,right?..Can you prove that it is "NOT" an off Earth experience,IF earth never manufactured these things? anymore than we, not able to prove an ET Factor. Rich,the ETH is staring us in the face.
What alternative do we have,that makes sense?............
By
Daniel, at Tuesday, February 01, 2022
It's a complex issue. The simplest solution is it us/them as terrestrial's of some kind. More complex in the same vein would be others of us in some kind of dimensional or time basis.
ETs could be otherworldly dimensional of some kind and/or capable of fantastic speeds. But even speeds at or above light speed still fall short in terms of the near incomprehensible cosmic distances involved and even then there is the problem of survival in our recent awareness of cosmic dangers and rareness of the Goldilocks zones.
By
Bryan Daum, at Tuesday, February 01, 2022
Hi Bryan, yes it is a complex issue, and we hear you, but would not some kind of dimension in time, -(should it exist)- be outside of our reality of this world; Thus, meaning outside Earth, in our reality of time!? Hence,because of this, ETs:).........?
By
Daniel, at Wednesday, February 02, 2022
Hi back Danial, if dimensional or a time travel is existing then sure that could then allow ETs but I struggle with the numbers involved in the cosmic distances (4+ light years to Proxima Centauri alone) and then the crapshoot of the need for a goldilocks' location for survival as we know it.
That's what make me think that "it is us" somehow.
By
Bryan Daum, at Wednesday, February 02, 2022
Hi Rich!
Yes, one can always say the alien race has tech that is 100-1,000,000 years in advance of us thus can do "magic". This seems like cheating, I agree. So, it behooves us to try to come up with something within the realm of the doable based on a projection of our own tech how anyone can visit anyone else from so distant places as even the nearest star.
Here is my idea and I would appreciate your opinion on it. I was intrigued by the Yuri Milner Project Starshot. Scientists have produced technical papers outlining how to send a tiny spacecraft to nearby stars at fraction of light speeds. I have reviewed them as best as I can, being no physicist. Dr. Lubin's paper is at https://arxiv.org/abs/1604.01356. They use a huge laser banks to rapidly accelerate the object(s). They make a big deal of mass production of the laser elements. So, given enough power and lots of laser modules, it seems possible. I see problems in accelerations on the vehicles. Pretty high. Also, I had a problem with the idea that they were designed to do a star flyby. I feel we are clever enough to figure out a way to slow down at the destination using the star solar pressure for instance. So, as long as you want to carry something tiny, then it seems like this Lubin method might work, given we want to do it (resources). In fact, they propose sending millions of these to a star assuming a certain damage rate in interstellar space due to dust or radiation.
Now we get to the next step. This is a little more of an extension of our tech. This is where nanotech comes along. I was always inspired by Eric Drexler. https://www.amazon.com/Engines-Creation-Nanotechnology-Library-Science/dp/0385199732 Yes, 1987 is old. Still, it is progressing slowly. So, we can extrapolate without calling upon the realm of magic. Thus, we place the nanotech on the tiny spaceship and when it gets to the other star (no flyby, but a slow down there using the star's solar pressure), the nanotech will find something to land on and convert into a larger machine. What does the machine do? Well, how the heck do I know? Maybe it carries data how to build simulacra, how to build a local flyer, how to build the entire Starshot device. It needs energy and materials to build these things at the destination.
In summary, tiny spacecraft carries tiny nanotech that can do a heck of alot once it gets there. We know biology is very tiny and does a lot (2 meter long DNA in one cell, the cell we cannot see with our unaided eye!), but biology is fraught with issues of survival in deep space. Nanotech is supposed to be more resilient.
Your question of why? We have Project Starshot's idea. To gather more knowledge. Science loves that reason. It really seems like Science is happy counting grains of sand just to have the data. At a more practical level, the desire to visit interstellar sites could be to make sure the site is not going to be a problem. Or to take advantage of some aspect of the solar system.
By
Moonman, at Wednesday, February 23, 2022
Moonman:
There has long been this canard, that Atom Bomb blasts on Earth can be detected by extraterrestrial civilizations, and that's what's driven UFO-encased ETs to visit here, often.
It's a joke, of course, and the idea of sending tiny (observe-prone) spacecraft to star systems and, apparently exoplanets orbiting them, to find life is a desperate measure, as I see it, but interesting nonetheless.
However, like the idea that ETs from afar detecting atomic bomb activity here, it stretches credulity.
Surely, there must be an "easier" more accommodating process or procedure to determine if a planet -- not a star -- contains living, intelligent life.
A recent lecture that came my way spoke of astronomers trying to find a way to detect lights on possible planets containing "advanced" species; that is, would lit patches on an exoplanet tell observers that a species exists there, lighting up a dark planet -- dark for
various reasons -- one from the planet's orientation or orbital positions, or because it's too far from its sun, or ????
Then there is the oumuamua scenario of scouting an area of the cosmos open to livable planets with instrumentation for detecting signs of advanced life -- this is what the Yuri Milner Project seems headed although not delineated in the current papers in print.
That would make sense, but how long would it take for Earthlings to get the feedback and analyze it?
We are desperate to find other life (intelligent life) anywhere, thus the mad belief that UFOs will enlighten us -- and if one is "grabbed" and examined, maybe that will make the case.
But while I hold out for a UFO/ET (or some other) denouement, I'm disinclined to think it will be an ET solution, as delightful as that would be.
And we'll have to scout further around outer space for real answers, sort of like Avi Loeb surmised about his "scout" traveler -- oumuamua.
RR
By
RRRGroup, at Wednesday, February 23, 2022
Good points, but it's odd you can propose two fantasy scenarios as reasonable, but totally ignore the supremely more reasonable hypothesis that UFOs are simply secret mundane tech. You can propose something silly and imaginary, but you can't suggest the obvious explanation? Did Occam's Razor ever have a place in "ufology"?
By
The Palmer, at Wednesday, February 23, 2022
The idea. TP, that UFOs are ours is okay with me, for some current sightings but one cannot erase the past observations with that probability.
RR
By
RRRGroup, at Wednesday, February 23, 2022
The Palmer,
Yes, I know. See my comment in https://ufocon.blogspot.com/2022/02/frenzied-ufological-activity-that-takes.html There I show how it is impossible to prove it is "alien".
Rich asked for a method. I was not conjuring some Star Trek "physics". I was extrapolating a little from more practical tech. But of course, until we can actually do it, you can easily dismiss it.
By
Moonman, at Wednesday, February 23, 2022
Rich,
Yes, the Atom Bomb blast canard has been proposed as a "Why". But I never liked it. The odds of the Earth atom bomb flash side being pointing at the alien observatory is <50/50. Even then, it could be an asteroid hit on Earth instead. Better that they had already sent the trillions of nanospaceships to all the stars they could thousands of years previously and allowed them to each construct their local travelling assembly (flying saucer and occupant). So, the assumption is, they have been hanging around, doing their inscrutable activities, maybe dropping in periodically to create djinn or fairy or flying ship myths/lore, anal probes, cow carving. Things like war or atom bombs would be of interest likely in their algorithm. Ice cream stores less so.
I do not see this nanospacecraft idea as a "desperate measure". It is just what science does.
As to the Starshot concept +nanotech being a stretch, of course it is. But we are not basing it on pulling something out of our asses. It is based on Moore's Law and other economic projection models. Skeptics abhor the distance between stars yet laugh at relying on unknown advanced technology from super smart aliens/AI. It is a conundrum. Alien magic tech will not satisfy. Worm holes or warp drive are out of the question. Even fission or fusion or antimatter drive seems unlikely. So, I am willing to give the Starshot group some credit for an approach that could work by changing the scale of spaceship.
Yes, NASA has the technosignatures thing they are pushing. They are looking for Dyson spheres or other structures, spectrum of atmosphere components, etc. Good luck to them, but it would not be the same as aliens travelling the vast distance to Earth. I think technosignatures would be interesting, but is it useful? The odds are that the stars they find with possible life are too far away even for Project Starshot to visit in reasonable time. So, what are we to do? Send a message and wait 50-200 years for a reply if anything? In our Twitterverse we are not going to do that. In fact, given our 50/50 society, half will protest that this is inviting Putin-like invasion.
The other approach I have seen is gravitational lensing. You rely on how the gravity field of a star warps space into a lens and allows you to see much better things far away. A fascinating approach which has been used for random alignments of stars/targets so far. The idea is to fly a spacecraft around OUR solar system to get the alignment right for selective star observations. Of course, we have hardly gotten to the piont of flitting around our solar system that easily, but again, it is a good idea that we may someday pursue. I can dig that paper up for you if interested.
Yes, Oumuamua is a method an alien race can use to visit other stars, but Loeb treats it as dead flotsam/jetsam. I feel that if it is really alien tech, it could have been still operating. We cannot send such objects to another star because of the huge energies involved and huge time periods (we do not have the right attention span). But if aliens had done this with Oumuamua, then here we must allow for the option they DID have warp drive. Loeb states Oumuamua will travel our solar system for 10,000 years and shows where he thinks it is from in his paper. To assert it takes 10,000 years to travel our "solar system" means he assumes it is travelling at a constant speed through the entire Oort cloud. But maybe it does not go the same speed for that long period. All he can speak on is the brief few years of observations. So, he is REALLY extrapolating. Also, he thinks that the trajectory can be assumed to be the same as observed by puny Earthlings. Well, what if 1 day before it was observed it popped out of warp 10 from a different direction. So much for assumed points of origin.
I do not think we are desperate to nonintelligent life on Mars. But you are right we are desperate for other intelligent life to act as a deus ex machina to our problems.
By
Moonman, at Thursday, February 24, 2022
RR:
Though I think you’re just an obfuscator, I’ll try posting this again:
RR:
You don’t think those who told us of their fantastic encounters with visiting Space Brothers decades ago might have been paid to lie? Face it, not one shred of physical evidence for the ETH has ever been put forth - likewise for time travel and “dimensional rifts” - but due to the ubiquity of the video camera the physical reality of the ufo phenomenon has now become undeniable. There is also no evidence that ufos are capable of extraterrestrial travel. Yet not one mouthpiece for the topic will suggest the obvious: not only are ufos manmade, but people travel in them all the time.
The history of ufo sightings supports my hypothesis. Witness the airship encounters across the US in the 1890s: all the occupants of these strange, seeming hybrids of propeller-driven craft and hot air balloons were human beings, many of whom had conversations with witnesses. No one who saw these travelers thought of angels, demons, outer space, or “aliens”. The witnesses said the occupants of the craft said they were testing new flying machine technology, not that they were from Venus.
My guess is that once the technology was ready for large-scale use (apparently in the late 1940s), they had to disseminate stories of aliens to head off the natural curiosity of people would start to feel about the odd vehicles they were seeing in the skies practically every day.
Consider this hypothesis: ufos are made, flown, and occupied by human beings. People hate the idea, but only for social reasons. This idea requires no belief in imaginary beings, or preposterous ideas like time travel, but does require that you accept that you are little more than livestock to our governors.
Welcome to the hoodwinked existence of the useless eater.
By
The Palmer, at Thursday, February 24, 2022
TP:
I like, very much, your observations and speculations, and I don't disagree with many.
I try to create debate here and often spur, or try to, some oblique views.
You provide that, so I look forward to commentary from you, even if I offer a "devilish advocated" response.
Hang in there and keep providing your juicy comments.
RR
By
RRRGroup, at Thursday, February 24, 2022
Grazie, Moonman,
You and The Palmer open some pathways for me to conjure with.
I'll be mentioning both of you and some of your interesting views upcoming.
RR
By
RRRGroup, at Thursday, February 24, 2022
RR,
Thank you for welcoming my comments.
Something else you might find juicy: the Atom Bomb Blast canard (as Moonman calls it) did double duty: it provided a reasonable foundation for the lie that space brothers were suddenly visiting us, while simultaneously promoting the lie that nuclear weapons are real.
Palmer
By
The Palmer, at Thursday, February 24, 2022
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